I am NOT asking whether it's now feasible or practical to remove the existence of Israel as a State. Nor am I asking whether you think Jews have a right to live alongside Muslims peacefully (this was never a problem in the past).

I am merely asking whether you think, in principle, Israel as an authority and as a State has:

- a right to exist

- a legitimate claim to any part of Jerusalem/Palestine

yes has a right to exist, but should have a rights over palestine or claim any part of it

Interesting. Let's extend this discussion.

1. Who gave Israel the right to exist?
2. And why should Palestinians have any part of their land given absolutely to the Jews? What crime did they commit that they should be forced to give their land given to the Jews? (back in 1948 when "Israel" was created for the first time on Palestinian land obviously without Palestinian permission)

They gave it to themselves.



So are you saying they should give it back? Should Bangladesh give land back to the tribal and indigenous people of the land? Should the Americans give the land back to the native Indians? Should the British give land back to the Celts? A lot of people are living on land that never belonged to their ancestors.

I don’t agree with what they are doing but I understand it. Jews place Israel and Jewish people’s interest at the top of their priority.

The people we should be angry at are the Arabs. Are the Arabs using their influence and power? I watched a Michael Moore film that showed how much of the US economy is in the hands of the Arabs, from memory I think it was around 7% of the whole economy. Where is the political pressure from Arabs?

Briton sells billions of pounds of arms to Saudi Arabia. How about using some of it?

On the T.V channels they are raising money for Gaza. They want me to give my hard earned money while the filthy rich Arabs sit on their billions? They have money to buy football players in Manchester. They have money to build man made islands in the U.A.E. They have money to pay ransoms to pirates but can’t find money for the Palestinians?

There is no collective consciousness or consensus amongst Muslims.

How can I believe the Arabs care for the Palestinians when the Egyptians shoot them for crossing over the border in a time like these?

People need to protest outside the Egyptians and the Saudi embassy. The Arabs are just as bad as the Israelis with a massive dollop of hypocrisy thrown in.

Looking forward to your reply.

Yes, the Zionists demanded land that wasn't theirs. But the ones who actually gave a part of Palestine to the Zionists was Britain and the UN. Effectively, what happened is that Britain decided to give someone elses' country to a third party, without any permission from the true legitimate owners of that land (the Palestinians). It's the UN that gave 55% of Palestinian land to the Jews who were only 30% of the population and reserved only 45% for the 70% native Arabs (one of the greatest injustices of the 20th century). It was the Ottoman Islamic Empire which invited the Jews to live in it's lands peacefully as citizens, because we have a history of treating guests with honour, especially the People of the Book (as long as they paid the Jizya, and lived according to State Laws). And yet in return for their hospitality, the Arab Muslims were forced BY THE UN to pay for the crimes of Europe by being forced to give up land for the Zionists (who used the Jews as a cause and to justify their political ambitions). And the UN had the nerve to claim that the holocaust is why the Jews should be given a country of their own... so why the HELL didn't Germany give it's land? Or Britain for all the discrimination that the Jews suffered in England even?


If it was possible to get back what they stole, then yes. But unfortunately it's not very likely these days.. but in any case, I already said in my first post that I am talking about principles. IN PRINCIPLE, did Israel have a right to ever exist... I wasn't asking about whether its feasible or likely to dismantle Israel as a State (that's a separate discussion).


Just cos others have stolen land from the innocent and got away with it, doesn't mean that we should've allowed occupiers/illegal squatters get away with doing it to us!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6SWBAlS7plA

George Galloway explains how:

- it was the Christian World and the Europeans who discriminated against the Jews.
- the Muslims were the ones in fact who protected the Jews in the Islamic Empire
- the State of Israel was founded by Atheistic Zionists
- Britain (the authority at the time) never had the right to grant the Zionists any part of that land (implicitly arguing that that Israel had no right to exist in the first place!)

Us?

Zionists steal land from Palestinians.

Palestinians = Muslims = part of us?

Pakistanis = Muslims = Us?

Would your brother do this to you? Not all Muslims are the same.

That's a ridiculous argument. Are you telling me that if your Muslim neighbour treated you badly, that you would not help your Muslim brother in another town?

You should not judge your actions and your teachings by what others do, but you judge your actions and your decision to act by what the Prophet has taught you. He has obliged you to help your brothers/sisters.

Rise above the predudices and the injustices that others have committed against you (the Pakistani war crimes of the 70s), and become a greater person to those who have not oppressed you, i.e. the Palestinians who are your brothers/sisters and who you are obliged to help and unite with. Their land is your land.

"The Muslims are one unique Ummah among the whole of mankind; their land is one, their war is one, their peace is one, their honour is one and their trust is one" (Hadith)

Mousa Abu Marzook, PhD, Deputy of the Political Bureau of Hamas, in a July 10, 2007 Los Angeles Times Op-Ed titled "Hamas' Stand," wrote:

"The sticking point of 'recognition' has been used as a litmus test to judge Palestinians. Yet as I have said before, a state may have a right to exist, but not absolutely at the expense of other states, or more important, at the expense of millions of human individuals and their rights to justice. Why should anyone concede Israel's 'right' to exist, when it has never even acknowledged the foundational crimes of murder and ethnic cleansing by means of which Israel took our towns and villages, our farms and orchards, and made us a nation of refugees?"

Mahmud al-Zahar, MD, head of the Hamas majority faction in the Palestinian Legislature, in a Feb. 4, 2006 Washington Times article was quoted:

"Israel is not a legitimate entity, and no amount of pressure can force us to recognize its right to exist."

Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi, the late leader and spokesman for Hamas, in a Mar. 22, 2004 BBC News article titled "Who Are Hamas?":

"It is forbidden in our religion to give up a part of our land, so we can't recognise Israel at all. But we can accept a truce with them, and we can live side by side and refer all the issues to the coming generations."

The 1988 Hamas Covenant contained the following statements in rejection of Israel's right to exist:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it' (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."

Article six states

"It [Hamas] strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine."

Article eleven states:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [inheritance] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."

Article fourteen states:

"[The] liberation of Palestine is... an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be."